Uninterruptable Power Supply Rant

Uninterruptable Power Supply Rant

(From RussellMUCK 8/4/03)

Azizi says, "I think I am going to buy that 1500VA UPS once I get up the $200 to get it."

Akili rumbles lightly, "That's a hefty battery. But you're not running a low-power system, either."

Akili hmms. "If the power went out here and I *needed* to stay online... I'd probably hook up my laptop instead."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "I even have cut my output voltage from my UPSs down to around 95 volts to keep the batteries running longer and I don't get much up time anymore. ALso these batteries are old and probably need replacing too. WHat I like about that unit as well is that as advertised it is supposed to have 160 minutes uptime. With the additional optional battery upgrade you can increase that too 360 minutes."

Azizi grrs as there is another hole in the roof.

Azizi says, "If I get that UPS I will use my 500s for my moniter and sound."

Akili sings o/~ Now I'm towing my car, there's a hole in the roof, my possessions are causing me suspicion but there's no proof-

Akili considers sound to be a low priority in a power outage.

Azizi nods. "Well when I have a UPS that is supposed to give me 6 hours uptime I think I can afford the luxury of sound."

Akili grins. "Which means you have a better UPS than you need. :)"

Azizi says, "I will use the big one for my computer alone. The 500 for my moniter and modem, and the other 500 for my sound."

Akili laughs. "Sheesh."

Akili has a 650 for his computer, monitor and switch, and a 350 powering his cable modem and hub.

Azizi says, "However I am not certain about the sound. I might use that UPS for my TV/VCR/DVR."

Azizi says, "Well I am also pulling much more power than you."

Azizi says, "My CPU alone pulls around 70 watts."

Azizi says, "And from what I understand my video card pulls another 100-150."

Azizi says, "Then I have two 7200RPM hard drives a DVD rom and a CDRW"

Akili checks his connections, and realizes that his UPS may not be powering his switch after all. "I'll have to fix that."

Azizi says, "I was just giving you an idea of just how much power I am pulling."

Akili rumbles lightly, "One of these days I want to pick up one of those watt-usage meters."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oh, I have no doubt that it's a lot."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And I'll be facing the same thing when I upgrade my computer."

Azizi does as well to know just how much her system is pulling.

Azizi says, "And one thing I have noticed with the UPSs is that since most computers pull more heftier UPSs are cheaper now."

Azizi says, "I was shocked to see that UPS for only $200. I was looking at that or a similar UPS rather a couple years ago and was looking at around $1000."

Akili asks, "A 1500 UPS for only $200? Are you serious?"

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "Best buy."

Azizi says, "An upgradeable UPS for $200."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Wow. Okay, that's a significant exception. In my experience, they haven't really changed that much."

Azizi says, "As you can put another battery in it."

Akili asks, "Right. What brand?"

Azizi says, "APC."

Akili blinks. "Wow."

Azizi nods, "That is what I did and said when I saw it."

Azizi says, "Actually my reaction was more like this."

Akili rumbles lightly, "That's not an average price, to my knowledge."

Azizi blinks, "Holy shit!"

Akili rumbles lightly, "For example, I know PC Connection is hardly the lowest price on the market, but a 1500 APC Smart-UPS through them is nearly $500."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Hm. That is cheaper, I suppose."

Akili rumbles lightly, "It's just that the lower capacity ones haven't been comparitively less expensive."

Azizi says, "I think that is the one I saw."

Azizi says, "Yup that's the one I saw."

Azizi says, "Go to www.apc.com and select the united states as your country."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Okay."

Azizi says, "From there select the products tab on the top of the site, then select UPS, then PC & Workstation UPS."

Azizi says, "The last one on that page should be the Back-UPS RS"

Azizi says, "Select the BR1500 model."

Akili rumbles lightly, "$300 from them. Not bad at all."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Not that I have that much to spend right now."

Azizi frowns and sees just why her UPS isn't lasting long enough.

Azizi says, "Using that 1500 and assuming I use about 300 watts I should only have 20 minutes runtime with that."

Azizi says, "70 with the extra battery."

Azizi says, "I want to go ahead and run my batteries in parralell to pick up the bonus time you get from extra batteries."

Azizi says, "And if you check out the watages and such you will see just why UPS's are getting cheaper. Even this 1500 will only run like I said 20 minutes at 300 watts which is what the suggested minimum power supply is now."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Well, that's what a power supply is capable of running at, not what it's always draining."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "Yes but it means that most computers are pulling more than the 200 or 250 that used to be the standard or pushing them close to thier natural limits."

Akili sees the Back-UPS 650 that he has for $129 through APC, and he got it at Fry's Electronics for $100 several years ago.

Akili rumbles lightly, "The bigger ones are getting less prohibitively expensive, but the smaller ones don't seem to be changing much."

Azizi says, "Well I have seen even 1000s cheaper than before. I think I saw some APC ones for $150"

Akili rumbles lightly, "Let's see... the 1000 of the same series is $250. So it'd have to be one of those $100 off specials, which, now that I think about it, is when I got mine."

Akili needs a bigger bedroom.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Using my laptop in an emergency like that is great... except I don't really have a comfortable place to use it."

Akili also likes the Smart-series of UPSs that have the battery charge indicator on the front.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Pity they cost so darned much."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I don't want to drain a UPS until it's absolutely dead, as lead-acid batteries really don't like that; their cells start collapsing. And the cheaper models don't have any way to see battery charge remaining, even through the data cable."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Mine will indicate when it thinks the battery is low, but it's wrong."

Azizi nods, "Mine too."

Akili rumbles lightly, "It says it's low in about five minutes. I ran it once for 25 minutes."

Akili rumbles lightly, "That was my computer, monitor, and stereo."

Azizi hrms, "What I am seeing about this 1500VA makes me think it sucks worse than some 1000s."

Akili asks, "Not all UPSs are made equal, no, but what are you reading that's bad?"

Azizi says, "According to the website this 1500 with two batteries, so equivilent to a 3000 and only having 155 watts pulled will run a whopping two minutes and eightteen seconds."

Akili blinks. "That can't be right."

Azizi says, "That is what I am thinking."

Akili frowns. "Although..."

Azizi blushes, "Oops. I misread that. It is hours and minutes. Not minutes and seconds."

Akili compares some 500 models out of his magazine.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Ahh. But there are still some discrepancies here."

- Back-UPS ES 500: 20 minutes under 325 watt load

- Back-UPS CS 500: 12 minutes under 300 watt load

- Back-UPS LS 500: 14 minutes under 315 watt load

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "Well each different model might have some different built in features that pull power of thier own."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oh."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Hmm. That may be true, but I don't think that's all of it."

Azizi says, "If you have a power meter that is going to pull extra power that one without a power meter will."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm noticing here that the 500 and 350 and so on are matching up to the max VA capacity of the UPS."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Not the actual total amperage of the battery."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I think that despite the equal numbers, they do not have equal batteries."

Akili rumbles lightly, "For example, a Back-UPS ES 725 was a 3 minute runtime under 450 watts. My 650 has a 6 minute runtime under 400 watts. That's not much of a difference in wattage for the uptime."

Azizi says, "Yes it is."

Azizi says, "Here is something to think about."

Akili points to the identical numbers previous.

Akili asks, "Why would one last 20 minutes at 325 and another last 12 at 300?"

Azizi says, "If I get that 1500VA and it is supposed to have 160 minutes up time. I add another 1500VA battery and more than double my up time."

Azizi says, "The more VA you have and the less power you use compounds the amount of uptime you get."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Of course. I'm just saying that the VA is not indicating the total capacity of the battery. Just what it is capable of handling."

Akili rumbles lightly, "A triple-A cell and a D-cell have the same max voltage output, but different amperages."

Azizi nods, "True, but usually it is an indication of the battery. Each of those different models may have different number of lights, plugs, features, amount of power used by those features and USB cable connecting the UPS to computer."

Azizi says, "Yeah but you are forgetting something."

Azizi says, "VA has nothing to do with voltage."

Azizi says, "It has to deal with a calculation that tells you how many watts it can handle."

Azizi says, "Most UPS batteries are either 12v or 24v."

Azizi says, "I think that most of them are 24v now."

Akili checks that, and nods. "True enough. But that's still only max output."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "And the closer you get to the max output the amount of uptime drops drastically."

Azizi says, "And the farther you get from max output increases your uptime exponentially."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Right. However, just from looking at the model numbers, there is no way of knowing which UPS battery will last the longest."

Azizi says, "Yes you can."

Azizi says, "Fairly accurately."

Azizi says, "That is why they don't call it by the amount of watts or amps. They tell you the number based on a calculation. The VA calculation."

Azizi says, "It won't be dead on. But it will be fairly close."

Akili asks, "So what does 500 VA tell you by itself?"

Akili rumbles lightly, "That it handles up to a 500 VA draw."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Hm."

Akili grins. "So, here's a question."

Akili asks, "How much more capacity can you give a 500 VA-capable battery without increasing its VA rating?"

Akili rumbles lightly, "In that list earlier, one had a 20 minute lifetime, and the other had a 12 minute lifetime with a slightly decreased wattage draw."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Obviously, a 650 is going to offer more power than a 500 would, but when it comes to otherwise identical 500 models, that's not quite as straightforward, so far as I can tell."

Azizi says, "Well I don't know exactly how they do it nor the calculation anymore. But it also depends on the quality of the battery they are using. 500 VA is a calculation that they run on the battery. I would assume that there is at least a 10% allowable difference. I would almost bet that all three of those units use the same battery they just have different interntal components, enough to make a difference in the amount they draw."

Akili rumbles lightly, "One of those is a rather large difference. For a 300 watt load to drain in 12 minutes while a 325 load to drain in *20* minutes, with the same 500 VA-rated battery... That makes the difference between the 650 and the 725 I mentioned later look downright trivial."

Azizi says, "I am not sure. But like I said earlier. Even a small increase in the amount of wattage used can significantly drop how long it will last."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Right. My previous comment is inverted, of course."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "The battery that is drawing more is lasting longer."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Anyway, I'll have to keep that in mind when I go UPS shopping."

Azizi says, "Well I don't know then."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "I always figured that the VA rating was the capacity of the battery, not its max output. Now I know otherwise."

Azizi says, "More features doesn't always mean better."

Akili rumbles lightly, "No. But I'd sacrifice some power for a power meter on the UPS itself. :)"

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "The Smart UPSs have a load and a battery meter. That's all I'd care about on any of them."

Azizi says, "Well as that 1500 is really cheap right now for some reason you can go that way and not worry about a power meter as you would have enough power to last until power is restored."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Probably. Not guaranteed, of course. And if power is out for a while, and you drain the battery completely, you might wreck the battery."

Azizi says, "Well there is always the warning signal and I am pretty sure that given all the extra power you will have it will be fairly accurate and be wise to shut down when it goes off and not worry about it."

Akili grins. "Especially with a system like yours."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I would hope so. I stopped using the serial cable with my UPS."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Which means if my computer is on at home for remote access and the power is out for an extended amount of time, I'm screwed."

Azizi says, "Me too. My warning signal is more than enough to give me time to shut down. However this last time it was going off the moment power went off and I just didn't have time as I had been running it through mini surges which drain it more than just having the power off."

Azizi says, "Nope."

Akili asks, "Nope?"

Azizi says, "Nope."

Akili asks, "What nope?"

Azizi says, "This one has a USB cable that you can connect and when the warning alarm goes off will shut down your program and then your computer."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I still don't understand what you are saying nope to."

Azizi says, "Well you won't be screwed if you aren't home."

Azizi says, "It will automatically shut down your computer."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Yes I will. I said I disconnected the serial cable."

Azizi says, "I mean if you get the new one and use the USB cable."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Uh-huh. I wasn't talking about a new one. I was talking about my current one."

Azizi ahhs.

Akili rumbles lightly, "My two comments *did* follow each other."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm not using the serial cable with my UPS, and if my computer is left on at home while the power goes out, that's it."

Azizi says, "And that is why I said that this one has a USB cable."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Right. USB or serial doesn't matter."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Now, here's what I wonder."

Akili rumbles lightly, "If the UPSs have a safety feature to protect them from ruining the battery when you don't have the software running."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And if so, how useful it is when my UPS thinks the battery is almost drained when it's only been five minutes and I know it can last at least five times as long."

Azizi says, "Yes."

Azizi says, "However not like you would want."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Do tell."

Azizi says, "It is a real pain really. I had a problem with my computer. But it only works if you run the software in the first place. IF you don't have the cable connected and you tell it it should be it will give your computer about 5 minutes uptime and then shut down automatically."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I see. So you're essentially setting an internal countdown timer within the UPS."

Azizi says, "Within your computer."

Akili asks, "...What?"

Azizi says, "The software on your computer will say "hey I can't talk to the UPS there is something wrong. I better wait a few minutes to see if it will talk back to me and if it doesn't I need to shut down the computer so nothing bad happens.""

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oh. Well, that's freaking useless."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And I don't call that battery protection."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Which is what I was asking about."

Azizi says, "Well if your computer isn't running it isn't going to pull the battery."

Akili rumbles lightly, "But the little indicator lights and other stupid drains some of these UPSs obviously have will."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Your statement is accurate, even though it's more like something I'd expect from a lawyer. :)"

Azizi nods, "I am just giving you what they would say."

Akili asks, "Why, do you work for them?"

Azizi says, "Or rather the theory behind their software rather."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Of course, my whole point was if there was any sort of protection *without* software."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I don't always have computers plugged into UPSs."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "I am not sure. If they were smart they would stop the battery from drawing when it got down to a certain level and turn off. But that would be smart."

Akili rumbles lightly, "My cable modem and hub are being powered by a.... hm. Either a 350 or a 500 UPS. If the power was out for a couple days, it'd go dead, and there's no computer at all to talk to it."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "Actually."

Azizi says, "I wonder if they would go out. They pull so little power, nah. They would probably be dead by then."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Right. That's what I was wondering. If the circuitry like that, if any, is better than the low-battery signal circuitry."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I've drained my UPS until it just shut off once. That's when I discovered that its 5-minute warning was a hoax. But I have not repeated the experiment, so I do not know if I have damaged the battery."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Obviously not severely."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "But this is a fairly basic UPS."

Azizi says, "So is mine."

Akili nods. "I'd ask APC, but I don't think I'd get an answer I wanted, as you were so kindly demonstrating, however unnecessarily. ;)"

Akili will have to consider if he will want his eventual fileserver on a UPS, too, and how he'll handle that if so.

Akili rumbles lightly, "That I would want the software on, since I'm not concerned about uptime, just a graceful shutdown."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "It's my desktop that I want to get more time out of."

Akili rumbles lightly, "As much time as I can safely wring out of the battery. And I have the wrong sort of UPS for that. :)"

Azizi says, "If I had the money I would pick up at least two of the 1500s right now as I am wondering if it is a mistake."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Probably not."

Akili rumbles lightly, "$100 off isn't unheard of."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I got mine that way."

Azizi says, "Well even at $300 it is rather low. Did you check out some of the 1000 units. Around $900+"

Akili rumbles lightly, "Nope, didn't see anything around that price."

Akili sees some fairly high-end 3000s for about $1,000.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oh, and here's a 1400 for $2,399."

Akili rumbles lightly, "But that is a rackmount that supports up to 5 additional batteries at $420 a pop, with 40 minutes per battery. The inital system runs for 7 minutes."

Akili rumbles lightly, "So that kind of expansion is what you're really paying for."

Akili rumbles lightly, "So, for about $4,500, you could get something that will run for 3 3/4 hours with a 1,000 watt draw."

Akili grins. "Not bad."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "Or you could just buy a couple of the 1500s I was looking at and swap out when one runs low if you are around for that."

Azizi says, "You would only need three to get the same amount of time as that $4500 unit."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Swapping them out would be difficult, of course."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Since you'd have to unplug the computer. As long as you don't mind turning it off, though, that's not so bad."

Azizi nods.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Or I could run my laptop off of my 650 and then my car battery jumpstarter for several hours. :)"

Akili rumbles lightly, "I really only want the uptime to remain online. Not to beat the next level of a high-end videogame I'm playing."

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "That is why I mentioned getting a few of the cheaper ones."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And I figure I can finish up or write myself out of most RP in a half-hour."

Azizi says, "As it wouldn't be a big deal to swap."

Akili rumbles lightly, "So a single 1500 with my new system should be sufficient. Not that I have the budget for one."

Azizi nods, "ANd if you find you need more you can just buy a new battery."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Considering all the thunderstorms and the fact that so many people run their A/Cs in summer, the number of outages here has been few, and they've all been under an hour."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I could, but that'd be a pain to recharge them again."

Akili actually should replace his laptop battery, but that's around $150, last he checked.

Azizi nods.

Azizi says, "It would be a pain. But hopefully you won't ever get them low enough for that to be an issue."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And I'm still not convinced that something isn't wrong with the charging circuit. But I can't check that."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Well, as I'm not likely to have that much money to spend on them in the first place ,no, it's not likely to be an issue. :)"

Akili thinks this qualifies as a rant, and sets it aside. "I think I'm about to head to bed, too. I'm tired. :)"

Azizi nods and hugs, "Good night daddy."

Akili waves goodnight, and heads out.