(from RussellMUCK 7/31/02)

Calin sings o/~ Please don't change. Please don't break, Oh the only thing that seems to work at all is you. Please don't change at all for me-

A restful breeze moves slowly across the plants.

Pearl says, "That's a good song, Calin. Better than Sheryl Crow's 'If it makes you happy' that's on now."

Calin says, "Well... actually they kind of go together."

Calin says, "If I was willing to change so you didn't have to."

Paw tries some Cake he hadn't heard before.

Pearl asks, "Like what, Paw?"

Paw purrs, "You Turn The Screws, Rock And Roll Lifestyle, Walk On By, Nugget, Open Book..."

Calin says, "Of course, one of the sad truths about relationships is that men tend to love women for who they are, and then they change. And women tend to love men for who they could be, but they don't change."

Paw purrs, "Not as good."

Pearl laughs at Calin's statement.

Paw purrs, "It's true."

Calin says, "Funny perhaps. True entirely too often though."

Pearl says, "I'm sorry."

Calin says, "Well... it's because men look for perfection and women look for potential."

Pearl doesn't know what to say to that.

Pearl asks, "Paw, what's your take on this?"

Calin chuckles. "Well, you could start by voicing an opinion on it. It is just my opinion, after all."

Pearl says, "Unfortuntely, I tend to agree in most cases. Wasn't sure how to voice my opinion on the right and wrong of it all/"

Calin says, "Ah. Well... it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just true. *feels like he's in the woods or something*"

Pearl says, "I mean, objectively it sounds better to look for potential versus perfection."

Calin says, "True."

Calin says, "Perhaps."

Pearl says, "Your chances of finding perfection are impossible (unless you're pathetically in love and thus blind)."

Calin says, "It's hard to say though. From a male perspective, it's better to look for perfection, because otherwise you'll always be trying to change you partner into what you think they should be, or disappointed because they're not."

Pearl says, "But looking for potential is sure to disappoint some percentage of the time."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Potential doesn't imply change though."

Calin says, "Yes it does."

Pearl says, "Perhaps women try to coax men into the potential that they see there, the potential they looked for in the first place."

Calin says, "Potential involves having the possibility to be or do something you currently aren't."

Calin says, "Which means you could change into it."

Pearl says, "If you have the potential to be ... say, a great banker, a women doesn't CHANGE a man into a banker, just brings out the great banker in him, encouraging him (hopefully)."

Calin says, "I'm seeing a clear female perspective here."

"What if he doesn't want to be a banker?" asks Calin.

Pearl asks, "Then why is there the potential there?"

"And what's the difference between changing a person, and 'bringing out' something in a person?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "Don't know."

Pearl says, "Women work well with hints and clues, so she must have seen evidence in the man for the potential great banker in the first place."

Calin says, "Right. What if he's comfortable where he is? Guys often don't want to give up comfort for change."

A soft breeze moves slowly across the shrubs.

Calin says, "Let's take Dante for example, in Clerks."

Calin says, "Veronica wanted him to go back to school and stuff."

Pearl says, "In my opinion, changing a person, is making them something their not, usually to please yourself or for your own benefit. 'Bringing out' the best in a man is hopefully for mutual benefit."

Calin says, "It's not that he didn't want to necessarily, but he didn't like the pressure."

Pearl says, "they're not, sorry."

Paw purrs, "Of course, Dante was an asshole..."

Calin says, "And that's why women do that."

Pearl says, "Yeah, the pressure part is what gives women the bad name."

Pearl says, "Not all women pressure, I think."

Calin says, "Because like you, they see a difference between changing a person and 'bringing something out' in him."

Calin says, "I'm sorry, but to me it's the same thing."

Pearl says, "oh."

Paw doesn't see the difference either.

Calin says, "Not that all change is bad, mind you."

Pearl arrghhs

Calin says, "But it is change."

Paw purrs, "But that's probably because I'm a guy."

Calin nods.

Pearl takes a deep breath.

Paw purrs, "Differences between men and women."

Calin says, "Don't get upset about it."

Calin says, "We all know there are differences between how men and women think."

Calin says, "I find it interesting to discuss this."

Pearl says, "I'm totally not. It's just hard to get my opinions and thoughts across on the tiny screen, and before your next thought pops up,"

Calin chuckles. "Oh ok."

Pearl says, "Personally I think it great to have conversations with men because of their different way of thinking. It is wonderfully challenging."

Pearl says, "I think that's one reason (of many obvious other ones) that I'm heteosexual."

Calin chuckles.

Calin says, "Well, I've rarely come across ideas where men and women seem so clearly different though. Usually when someone says an idea is 'typically male' or 'typically female,' I find that it's more stereotyping than actual."

Paw purrs, "Yeah... I find this particular difference rather intruiging."

Pearl asks, "What do you mean?"

Pearl asks, "The changing idea?"

Paw purrs, "I've heard the concept that women look for potential, men for women as they are. I always thought of it falling into the 'stereotype' before, though."

Calin knew it to be sometimes true, but it never occurred to me that we might have completely different ways of seeing 'change.'

Paw purrs, "It's interesting to see that at least between the three of us, such a disparity in understanding."

Pearl says, "Well, maybe it's an evolution thing: men look for the woman as they are for the baby. Women look for men as potential for long-term stability."

Paw nods, "Probably something like that."

Calin says, "Possibly."

Pearl says, "I just talked to another woman here. She's with me. You gotta be carefully with people in that respect."

Calin says, "Although that doesn't really make sense."

Paw purrs, "Hey... can either of you see http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/modulesTop2.shtml"

Paw purrs, "I am getting a wierd result."

Pearl says, "Yup."

Pearl says, "I see it< paw."

Paw purrs, "Hm."

Calin says, "Evolution comes into play when a particular trait makes an individual less likely to survive and reproduce."

Paw purrs, "Odd."

Calin sees it too.

Calin says, "Now, men wanting women for childbearing purposes fits with that..."

Calin says, "Oh, and the children are more likely to survive if the women are with stable supportive men."

Calin says, "Ok, it does make sense."

Pearl says, "That's what I meant. It's gotta be something subconscious, if you believe the evolution theories of psychology."

"Sure, why not?" asks Calin.

Paw purrs, "Well, and if women look for it, that also increases the likelihood."

Pearl says, "I know, I, as a woman, am definitely looking for the long-term stable type."

Calin says, "Huh."

"How does that go back to wanting people to change?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "Oh, just the potential thing I guess."

Pearl exclaims, "It goes back to the potential part. That's why my argument against the changing people makes sense. Why would a woman want her stable man to change?!"

Paw purrs, "Not particularly that they want change, but they look for the possibility."

Calin says, "She does. From a male point of view."

Pearl says, "Only if she saw the potential for him to be stable there."

Paw asks, "Which broadens the range?"

Calin says, "But as we discussed, bringing out potential means 'change' to men."

Calin says, "But not to women."

Pearl exclaims, "I don't get it. How are they the same?!"

Calin says, "Because both involve things not remaining the same."

A steady calm falls on the fountain.

Calin says, "When something is no longer the same as it was, it has changed."

Pearl says, "That's generalizing then"

Calin says, "Nope. Define change."

Paw asks, "Who was it that was telling me that women experience many more distinct emotions than men do?"

Calin chuckles.

Calin says, "Not I."

Pearl says, "No pocking fun."

Pearl says, "poking, sorry."

Paw purrs, "Kimia or Pearl, I don't remember."

Pearl says, "Kimia."

Paw purrs, "Anyway, that probably has something to do with this."

Calin says, "Perhaps."

Pearl says, "Give me a minute, and I might be able to explain myself."

Calin nods.

Paw purrs, "Men see fewer gradients in meaning, color and emotion."

Pearl says, "better than before, anyway."

Paw purrs, "Or at least categorize them into smaller categories."

Calin can't agree with that without further definition.

Paw purrs, "Bigger categories, less of them."

Calin says, "Ah, possible."

Paw purrs, "I see the same color that Pearl does, I just call it green."

Calin says, "Right, she might call it deep forest or something."

Calin says, "And no man even knows what puce looks like."

Calin says, "Or mauve."

Calin says, "Or probably chartruce."

Paw purrs, "Men have a greater need to have black and white. So that they can make quicker decisions."

Calin chuckles.

Paw purrs, "Hunting and stuff."

Calin says, "I think we're getting more toward stereotyping here, and away from fact."

Pearl asks, "Yeah!! Okay. Potential means there's something already there with those elements/attributes, agreed?"

Calin says, "No."

Pearl asks, "What does potential mean then?"

Calin says, "Potential means possibility."

Paw purrs, "Capable of being but not yet in existence"

Calin says, "So it is not impossible for me to be a good banker. Thus I have the potential to be a good banker."

Pearl says, "Look it up in the dictionary"

Paw purrs, "http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=potential"

Paw purrs, "Way ahead of ya."

- Capable of being but not yet in existence; latent: a potential problem.

Pearl exclaims, "exactly!"

- change: To cause to be different: change the spelling of a word.

Paw purrs, "Potential problem is not yet a problem."

Paw purrs, "Once it becomes a problem, it has changed."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Back exampl.e"

Paw purrs, "A potential CEO is not yet a CEO. When he becomes a CEO, he has changed."

Pearl exclaims, "No, you're screwing the meaning!!"

Calin shakes her head.

Calin says, "Ack."

Calin says, "His."

Paw oO( Caline? )

Pearl exclaims, "You're being guys, it's not fair when you fight like this!"

Calin says, "I have the potential to be anything which I neither am, nor lack the capability to become."

Paw purrs, "I'm just saying that is how I see it... We've already established that men and women think differently on this."

Calin says, "However, any change from my current status is, by definition, a change."

Pearl says, "Fine. Back to the black and white thing."

Paw asks, "What is 'bring out potential'?"

Pearl says, "To emphasis a certain part that is already there."

Paw doesn't suspect he can find that in the dictionary.

Calin says, "Oh."

Paw purrs, "Ah... that is different."

Calin says, "Not a traditional definition of potential, but alright."

Pearl says, "In my example: say the potential was organized and good at math--thus he had the potential to be a great banker."

Calin says, "Or a rocket scientist."

Calin says, "Or a programmer."

Pearl says, "Fine, true."

Paw purrs, "But not a football player."

Calin says, "Or a mathemetician."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Right."

Paw asks, "What if he wanted to be a painter, though?"

Pearl says, "So there were elements that he was showing outwardly that representing the traits that would be good in a banker."

Calin says, "Or a good many other things."

Pearl says, "Fine, be a painter, that wasn't my example."

Calin says, "Sure it could be."

Calin says, "A person who is organized and good at math could also want to be a painter."

Pearl says, "If he WANTED to be a painter, that's a different discussion. I was trying to explain potential at the time."

Paw purrs, "I think we are getting off here..."

Calin says, "Ok ok."

Pearl says, "Thank you."

Paw's fault.

"So... he's good at math, and he wants to be a banker. Where does the woman come in?" asks Calin.

Paw asks, "If he hadn't thought of being a banker?"

Paw asks, "And hadn't realized he had the ... potential?"

Pearl says, "She sees that he's got the potential to be a good banker, sees he's good at math, etc. She's not changing him into a banker. She's bringing out the banker in him."

Calin says, "Well if he hadn't thought of it, he probably has other plans and desires."

Pearl says, "Yes, thank you, Paw."

Paw purrs, "Or he was Stack."

Pearl says, "Unless he's unmotivated."

Pearl says, "Yeah."

Calin says, "Well... it still sounds like change."

Paw wonders if Becca is really a woman.

Paw purrs, "Maybe she sees the potential for a big slug."

Pearl says, "If she was a mature woman, she's want to bring out the best in Stack."

Calin says, "If he hadn't thought of being a banker, but she thinks he'd be good at it... How can he know he wouldn't be better as a rocket scientist."

Pearl says, "His potential for whatever. She'd know best, if she knows him."

Calin says, "Ah. There it is."

Pearl asks, "What?"

Paw asks, "Because she is an outside observer?"

Paw asks, "Why wouldn't he know?"

Calin says, "The woman's opinion that she knows better than he himself what he's best suited for."

Pearl says, "No, because she's inside and knows him personally."

Pearl exclaims, "NO!"

Calin says, "Just playing devil's advocate here."

Pearl says, "Devil's something."

Calin says, "I know it's not always bad like that, but it certainly does happen."

Pearl says, "Yeah. That' gives women a bad name. I'm talking the ideal situation."

Paw mmmms, smells food.

Pearl says, "Deserter."

Paw heys, has food!

Calin says, "Well in the ideal situation, a woman would never change during a relationship, and men would always be more than happy to be who their woman wanted them to be."

A restful breeze silently moves over the grass.

Paw purrs, "Whoah. Gettin' mean."

Calin says, "That wasn't mean."

Calin says, "Or not intended as such."

Paw purrs, "No... the deserter comment."

Calin says, "Oh, I missed that."

Pearl says, "Kay. Sorry."

Paw purrs, "'Sokay."

Pearl says, "Just think it's not nice to have this intense conversation, and then say your piece and leave without hearing the other side."

Pearl says, "My dad does that."

Paw nods, "I know... all i have to do is microwave stuff, though."

Pearl says, "Because he thinks he's all knowing and stuff."

Paw purrs, "Well, I was only noting that my tummy was growling and that I smell food, and happen to have food."

Paw purrs, "No reason to accuse me of deserting."

Pearl says, "Yup. Good food too. See ya later then."

Paw brb.

Paw goes Off To Microwave (OTM)

Pearl finds something to do at work so she doesn't burst of frustration.

Calin says, "Sorry, didn't mean to frustrate you."

Pearl says, "It's okay. It's just a hard medium to have this discussion."

Calin says, "Oh... sorry."

Pearl says, "Then with you and Paw typing back and forth, it didn't seem fair because you're both on the same 'side'."

Calin says, "I guess it doesn't help that we're kind of ganged up on you."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Yeah, that's what I mean."

Pearl says, "Then you twist logic around and I don't get a chance to argue back."

Calin says, "Well, he's away. Type to your heart's content, and he'll read it when he gets back."

Pearl chuckles.

Calin says, "It's not my intention to twist. I'm just saying as I see."

Paw returns.

Pearl says, "I just hoped you'd understand my perspective. Don't have to agree, just see it."

Calin says, "I kind of do."

Pearl says, "Okay, that's something."

Paw nods, "Yeah, I see it."

Calin says, "I think what we can all agree on is that men and women see things differently. Like japanese people not being able to pronounce 'l'."

Paw hehs.

Pearl says, "Yeah. I totally get the see things differently. I think they argue differenly too!"

Paw purrs, "I think that people argue differently."

Calin says, "To me, bringing out potential is change, and trying to bring out potential in someone else is a very dangerous undertaking, because of your chances of being wrong about their desires and their potential."

Pearl says, "yeah."

Paw purrs, "Not sure I'd gender restrict that."

Pearl says, "Okay, I see your view, Calin."

Calin says, "To you, bringing out potential is not change, and not dangerous, because you understand the person (if you know them well enough), and can help guide them toward their potential."

Pearl says, "But originally I think we were talking about what men and women were looking for."

Pearl says, "I never said, not dangerous."

Calin says, "Oh uh..."

Calin says, "Then I guess I don't understand."

Pearl says, "Everything's almost about right, just take out the 'not dangerous' part of your statement."

Calin says, "I thought the whole point of the discussion was for us men to understand why women want us to change."

Calin says, "That's in man-speak, so don't get upset."

Pearl says, "Okay, but I see it as small changes, tweaking."

Pearl says, "Not career changes, habit alterings."

Calin says, "Yeh."

Calin says, "I find it interesting that there's no real discussion about the other half of my statement which started all this, about what men and women want."

Pearl says, "'He has the potential to be a great father if only he'd remember to turn off the oven when he's done' and such."

""Excuse me?" asks Calin."

Pearl asks, "What do you mean? That men are looking for perfection?"

Calin says, "Yeah."

Paw purrs, "And make Chicken Broccoli Cassarole more often."

Paw purrs, "Yep."

Pearl giggles at Paw.

Paw purrs, "Looking for you to be, as you are, someone we want to be with."

Pearl says, "I got an appointment at noon, but we can start now if you want."

Calin chuckles.

Paw purrs, "Note the Billy Joel song 'Just the Way You Are.'"

Pearl says, "You're looking for perfection, but you'll take us the way we are. That's settling for less. How terrible."

Calin says, "No."

Paw purrs, "No..."

Calin chuckles at the echo.

Pearl says, "My turn to twist and play Devil's advocate."

Calin says, "Yup."

Pearl says, "Then explain better."

Paw purrs, "We aren't settling. We wouldn't be with that person if we didn't think we were happy with them as they were. Ostensibly *Cough Stack*"

Calin says, "Perfection may not mean what you think it does."

Pearl says, "Okay..."

Pearl asks, "At least my meaning of potential was in the dictionary. You wanna explain perfection to me?"

Calin says, "I don't mean that we're all looking for the perfect woman, of the right height and build, who will cook and clean for us, and ... etc."

The quiet wind silently moves over the cool arched gateway.

Calin says, "I didn't see your meaning in the dictionary."

Pearl says, "Anyway."

Calin says, "Weird. I thought the definition we pasted validated the male point of view. That's fascinating."

Calin says, "Beyond compare."

Calin says, "Anyway."

Calin says, "What I meant when I said we look for perfection, is that we look for someone we can be happy with."

"What can be more perfect than being happy?" asks Calin.

Pearl asks, "The 'perfect for you' thing?"

Calin says, "Once we've found that person, the last thing we want is for her to change."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "I completely understand that part."

Calin says, "Women have a tendancy to change though."

Pearl asks, "How do they change?"

Calin says, "It depends on the woman."

Pearl says, "Okay, give me some example to work with."

Calin says, "Of course, we all change. It's inevitable."

Pearl asks, "What you can change, but not women?"

Calin says, "No."

Calin says, "We all can and do."

Paw purrs, "Men just want to stay the same. And women don't."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Oops. I'm DYING to continue this, but my person just came in. Be back soon."

Paw idles for some Neverwinter Lunch.

Pearl says, "Maybe you can formulate your thoughts for when I return."

Calin idles for some regular lunch.

Pearl says, "Cool"

Pearl goes Away From Keyboard. (AFK)

Calin says, "Part of the difficulty here is that we as men, have to define what we think women want."

Calin says, "I agree with Paw that men don't want to change, and women do..."

Calin says, "But I can't think of examples to quantify that."

Calin says, "At least, none that aren't too stereotypical to be admitted as evidence."

Akili has connected.

Calin says, "You just walked into a discussion about some of the differences between men and women."

Calin says, "Pearl isn't going to like that she's now even more outnumbered."

Akili laughs.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Well, I suppose I could connect a female character.... :)"

Calin says, "We're on hold though, while Paw eats lunch and Pearl has a meeting."

Calin says, "I'll catch you up if you want."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Sure, go for it."

--- catching Akili up has been clipped, so as not to be redundant --

Kimia has connected.

Kimia waves.

Calin waves. "Discussing differences between men and women. Akili is just about to give his point of view."

Kimia raises an eyebrow.

--- catching Kimia up has been clipped --

Akili chuckles. "Give me leeway for incorrect wording, since I don't think on my feet quite so quickly as you do. Anyway, I do agree that bringing out whatever potential might exist is change, simply because if that potential wasn't being used in the first place, then to use it afterwards is a change. Good or bad, it's still a change from what was. To recognize that the potential exists isn't necessarily a change, though, except in the sense that it's now been pointed. And for the last part.... I think it depends. Some people have a really strong knowledge of character, and I think you're one of them, Calin. While I suppose I know myself to a certain point, some things I'm just not going to see, as I'm too close to the problem, so to speak. It would not surprise me in the least to discover I had potential in something I was completely unaware of - perhaps because my experiences never lead me to think in that direction."

The hushed breeze silently rises across the grass.

Calin nods. "Of course, we hadn't made any statements as to whether any of what we're discussing is good, bad, right, or wrong."

Akili nods.

Kimia takes a deep breath as she finishes the mighty log.

Akili continues reading, and ponders.

Kimia thinks about the current things going with her parents for the moment.

Kimia says, "Hmm"

Akili rumbles lightly, "Interesting. When talking about potential before reading the log, Pearl's definition is what I was thinking of."

Calin says, "Interesting."

Calin says, "Personally, I'm more a believer in choices than predestiny, which probably effects how I see potential."

A peaceful breeze rises slowly across the grass.

Akili rumbles lightly, "And I think that's a matter of viewpoint. While as humans there's very little we can't do if we apply ourselves, I've thought that there are certain things that we might happen to have an natural advantage of. If we're unaware of those natural advantages we might have, then it would be a potential that Pearl was discussing. But you, for example, disbelieve in the idea of talents. Not that that's wrong, but it could also explain your viewpoint."

Calin says, "Anyway, don't worry too much about having missed that part. We still have to discuss the male part of it."

Calin shrugs. "I haven't really failed anything I've set my mind to, so either I have all talents (which I disbelieve), or it's more a matter of interest."

Kimia asks, "Without interest in something whats the point?"

"Exactly. And how can another person know your interests better than you do?" asks Calin.

Kimia nods. "Exactly."

Calin says, "I don't know if it's really fair to discuss this much farther before Paw and Pearl return."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Kimia, what made you decide to try RPing? I know it was a long time after I originally mentioned it before you actually did."

Kimia nods. "Yes we shouldn't go much into this until Paw and Pearl gets back."

Kimia thinks for a moment. "I was mostly curious at first grandpa about it."

Kimia says, "And I wanted to do something different."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Hm."

Pearl is now Active. (ACT)

Pearl says, "Wow, you guys talked about a lot while I was gone. I just caught up."

Pearl says, "I found myself nodding to a lot of what Akili said."

Calin suspects that Akili and/or Kimia are going to ruin our clearly defined gender patterns.

Pearl says, "Maybe Akili, I don't see how Kimia would."

Akili thinks it'll be him.

Pearl says, "But that's good."

Calin says, "Oh, I dunno."

Kimia plays innocent.

A steady calm settles on the bushes.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Something which I'm sure makes a large difference is that I have less experience with my own relationships than anyone currently connected."

Pearl asks, "Should we wait for Paw?"

Calin says, "Kimia, Akili... before we get too far I'd like to know if you think my original statement is often true or not."

Pearl asks, "Or just jump in, as we're leaning toward?"

Calin says, "About men not wanting change, and getting it, and women wanting potential, and not getting it."

Pearl says, "Well now... that's not quite right."

Calin says, "So look in the log."

Pearl says, "Were we discussing whether you're original statement was true more often than not?"

Calin says, "No."

Calin says, "See, so far we'd gone on the assumption (because we all agreed) that it was often true."

Pearl says, "I thought we were just picking it apart, in attempt to understand it..."

Calin says, "And so we were trying to understand WHY it's true."

Pearl says, "Right."

Calin says, "If Akili and Kimia don't believe it to be true, then we've got a whole different situation."

Pearl says, "But the argument would be the same, I think, whether they think it's true or not."

Calin says, "Not really."

Calin says, "For example: I say men are looking for perfection. Akili says: No they aren't."

"Now what?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "I pretty much agree with that statement, though I object to the implication and assumptions it makes."

Calin says, "Well sure, that'"

Pearl says, "Oh, I see, Calin."

Calin says, "s one of the things we duscussed."

Calin says, "In order to have reasonable discussion, some things must be accepted as truth."

Pearl says, "We were on the second part when I left, the perfection part. So Akili's points are appropriate."

Pearl says, "Okay."

Calin says, "So I was asking, basically, if we can continue to assume that my statement is generally true."

Pearl says, "I'm game.,"

Akili rumbles lightly, "I think I'd also agree that men are looking for their idea of perfection."

"Anyway, where were we?" asks Calin.

Akili rumbles lightly, "At the 'why don't men like it when women change' question, I think."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Aside from surveying mine and Kimia's opinions."

Calin says, "Ah yes, Paw had just said: Men just want to stay the same, and women don't."

Calin nods.

Calin says, "And I was trying to substantiate that."

Pearl says, "Goes back to the potential thing:"

Calin says, "Kind of."

"So why don't men also want to see potential through?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Women constantly reevalute themselves: looking for that potential to improve themselves. Maybe that's how they change to you."

Calin says, "I'm certain of it."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm not sure if I can answer that yet, although I will try to use it as a given for this discussion. :)"

Calin says, "You don't have to."

Calin says, "The thing I said at the start is a given now."

Calin says, "Paw's statement is still up for debate."

Pearl asks, "Calin, why don't men want to improve themselves by seeing their potential?"

Akili nods. "That's what I meant - what you said at the start."

Calin says, "Oh ok."

Calin says, "Just because I have the potential to be something, doesn't mean I want to be."

Pearl says, "I'm talking potential to be better than you are now."

Kimia says, "I agree with Paw's statement about men staying the same and women changing."

"Who's opinion of better?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Say, yours, for now."

Calin says, "Well, I always strive to be the 'best' I can be."

Pearl says, "You, for example, felt you had to potential to be a great tech guy."

Pearl asks, "Right?"

Calin says, "However, that doesn't always mean everyone else has to think I'm the best."

Calin says, "Perhaps the ideal life, for me, is lots of free time and no obligations. Starting a business then, is a very bad idea. Despite the fact that I may have a product that could make me a millionaire."

Pearl says, "What if you had a girl friend at the time that pointed out to your that you had that potential."

"So what is better?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "the tech guy potential"

Pearl asks, "What?"

Calin says, "I don't have the potential to be a tech guy. I AM a tech guy."

Pearl says, "I'm talking before you started this job."

Calin says, "I was a tech guy before I was ever employed."

Pearl says, "Say, when you were working at Staples. You weren't a tech guy then."

Calin says, "I have gained skills and gotten better."

Calin says, "Yes I was."

Pearl asks, "So you changed by getting better?"

Calin says, "I installed hard drives... I'd built my own computer..."

Pearl says, "hang on"

Calin says, "I did change, by gaining knowledge and experience."

Pearl says, "You showed sign of your potential: you installed hard drives and built your own computer."

Calin says, "Well, then you have to redefine what potential I showed."

Pearl says, "Then you got this job because you realized your potential, or someone else did."

Calin says, "I was already a tech guy. I may have showed potential to be a linux sysadmin..."

Pearl says, "I just said, you showed potential by your messing around with computer."

Calin says, "I showed ability by doing that."

Pearl says, "yeah."

Calin says, "Not potential."

The steady calm falls over the bushes.

Calin says, "Er, well hang on."

Pearl says, "Ability to do something, potential to do more with it."

Calin says, "I did show potential."

Calin says, "I showed potential to be a useful employee, so they hired me."

Calin says, "I was not a useful employee to them before that though."

Pearl says, "A useful tech guy."

Calin shakes his head.

Pearl says, "Wait, we were getting somewhere a second ago..."

Calin says, "I think we're stumbling on a matter of definitions ago."

Calin says, "Again I mean."

Pearl asks, "So you always had the potential in you to be a tech guy. You exhibited this potential by playing around with computers. With me?"

Calin says, "No."

Calin says, "I disagree."

Pearl asks, "How so?"

Calin says, "Because I was already a tech guy, or I would not have been able to mess around with computers in that way."

Pearl says, "Okay, that's a matter of definition, like you were saying."

Calin says, "Yup."

Kimia asks, "Couldn't one say its an interest more than potential for something?"

Pearl says, "Okay, let's take me as an example."

Calin says, "To me, I probably showed potential to be a great tech guy when I demonstrated a good grasp of logic."

Kimia says, "I'm not going into teaching cause of my potential. I'm going into it for my interest."

Pearl says, "I showed potential to be an editor by having an interest in language my whole life."

Calin says, "Then I became a tech guy by learning to work on computers."

Pearl says, "Yes, Calin."

Calin says, "Working on computers did not show potential to work on computers."

Pearl says, "You realized that you had the potential to be a good tech guy then"

Calin says, "It showed actual ability."

Calin says, "Not really."

Akili abruptly thinks of Rick.

Calin says, "I may have showed potential, but I didn't notice it."

Pearl says, "Let's slow down"

Calin says, "Lets."

Pearl says, "Right, you didn't realize it."

Calin says, "Right. And nobody pointed it out, either."

Pearl asks, "What if someone came along and pointed it out?"

"What if?" asks Calin.

Pearl asks, "Would they have been changing you?"

Calin says, "For a long time I had no interest."

Calin says, "And yes."

Calin says, "Well, I probably would have ignored them."

Pearl says, "Let me say something."

Kimia decides she won't do any good in this conversation.

Pearl says, "Change has certain meanings. I mean change as in not becoming a different person."

"What?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "I mean it as not becoming a different person altogether, just a different part of yourself,"

Calin isn't a part of himself.

Calin says, "I am myself, in complete."

Pearl says, "You could have been a great many things in your life. You just realized a specific potential and chose that one."

Calin says, "Er, completeness."

Calin says, "No."

Calin says, "I didn't realize, I didn't choose."

Pearl asks, "No? You think you're life was already pre-determinted?"

Calin says, "I just became."

Calin says, "No."

Calin says, "If anything, I chose to not choose."

Pearl says, "What happened to you then"

Calin says, "And this is where I ended up."

Calin says, "We discussed my run of luck before."

Pearl says, "But you always have choices. You chose to take the jobs."

Calin says, "Not really."

Pearl asks, "What? Why not?"

Calin says, "I choose to have a paycheck, and I've been lucky enough to have a career."

Calin says, "I've never turned down a job offer."

Pearl says, "brb"

Calin says, "Personally, I think all this typifies the whole 'men just want to stay the same' thing. Change is inevitable, but I've rarely if ever put any effort into directing that change."

Paw returns from Neverwintering.

Calin waves.

Paw yeeks and decides not to read back through the log.

Kimia says, "I think we are abusing the word potential here."

Paw purrs, "Rather long."

Calin nods.

Kimia says, "Hi Paw."

Calin says, "The gist of it is this:"

Calin says, "Starting from your statement: guys just want to stay the same, and women don't."

Calin says, "Pearl suggested it went back to the potential thing."

Kimia doesn't want to change.

Calin says, "And since then we've been in a semantic argument about what is or isn't potential."

Calin says, "Again."

Kimia whispers to Paw, "Mostly been between Pearl and Caliln."

The balmy calm falls across the warm arched gateway.

Calin says, "Well... she brought up my life and current status as an example of seeing and following up on potential."

Calin says, "Thus my latest statements about not doing anything of the sort."

Kimia just butchered Calin's name. "I thought that extra l would be nice. ;)"

"Heh. So Kimia. We've been abusing the word potential. What do you think it means?" asks Calin.

Paw asks, "An extra L and an E? Calline?"

Pearl says, "Better than an e at the nd"

Paw chuckles.

Calin grins. "Or the e at the start of end."

Kimia giggles.

Pearl giggles at Calin.

Paw ponders his level some more.

Pearl says, "Nothing like an all-day discussion on semantics and 'potential vs change' to burn the brain out."

Calin grins. "Wait till I get going!"

Calin says, "Oh wait, that's Vizzini."

Pearl rolls her eyes.

Pearl says, "Thank goodness death isn't on the line."

Pearl says, "I guess I just want to know why men don't like to change or don't want to change or don't like change."

Kimia says, "Its not the meaning of potential thats bothering me. Its how you guys are using it kind of reminds me of some slut hanging out on the corner or something."

Pearl says, "Or all of the above"

Calin says, "Whoa."

"How do you mean?" asks Calin.

Paw purrs, "She has potential, but she isn't using it..."

Calin says, "Whoa."

Calin chuckles.

Paw asks, "Instead she sits on the corner being a prostitute?"

Pearl says, "Kimia, you've seen Pretty Women too many times."

Kimia hides as the alarms go off. "I didn't do it."

Pearl says, "That's how they use it in that movie."

Paw purrs, "Oh."

Kimia says, "Yes I've seen it."

Akili coughs. "That's woman, Paw."

"Kimia, can you explain what you mean?" asks Calin.

Kimia nods and will.

Calin says, "And that was Pearl, Akili. Not Paw."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oops, sorry."

Pearl says, "Yeah, my type-o."

Paw thinks the conversation has the potential to keep him from doing work today.

Calin coughs.

Pearl says, "But that doesn't change the conversation."

Pearl smiles.

Paw purrs, "However, I don't intend to let it realize its potential."

Pearl says, "Now you're just mocking me."

Paw purrs, "Nope. Bein' serious."

Paw has a presentation to get ready.

Calin says, "That's a case where the potential will be realised or not realised by the way people react to it, not by any difference in the conversation itself."

Kimia hmmms. "What I'm trying to get at (which is a big jumble in my head) is that your using the word potential like its... Let me try this again... to me you guys are using and using the word but to me it seems to be losing something here. (ideas are heaped there somewhere)."

Calin says, "Which I suppose is a difference between a person's potential, and a thing's potential."

Calin shakes his head.

Calin says, "That didn't help, Kimia."

Kimia nods. "Yeah it didn't help me either."

Kimia says, "Go figure."

Paw purrs, "My lack or non-lack of participation is a difference in the conversation."

Pearl says, "Okay, let's stop there."

Calin shakes his head. "You mean stop the conversation, or what?"

Pearl says, "No, stop the meta-conversation that Paw's doing."

Calin says, "Ok."

Calin says, "You're right, it's sidetracked."

Kimia is trying to put together what she means.

Pearl says, "Here's the way I see it: Women see potential in men, in their perspective. Men don't change, in their perspective."

"We don't?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "Men change."

Pearl says, "Not according to what you just said..."

Calin says, "It's inevitable."

Calin says, "No, I said we don't WANT to change."

Pearl says, "OHHH! That's different."

Calin shakes his head.

Akili knows he changes, but it's usually such a slow process that he's not always aware of it.

Calin says, "Exactly."

Kimia doesn't want to change.

A warm stillness settles on the castle.

Akili rumbles lightly, "Yeah, well, I didn't want to lose my job, either. ;)"

Calin chuckles.

Pearl says, "I don't think anyone does want to change, to some degree."

Kimia says, "I didn't want you to lose your job either."

Calin says, "I dunno."

Calin says, "I've heard a few different times, both in movies/tv and in real life:"

- man: You've changed.

- woman: I've changed for the better. You're exactly the same.

Pearl says, "Yup, that's perfectly what I mean."

Calin says, "Not direct quotes, but the general idea."

"So what do you mean, women don't want to change?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Or even:"

Kimia says, "The way you're using potential, to me, is like using the word of the week. Its fun to use that but after awhile you give it a new meaning. (but that doesn't mean you aren't using it right.)"

Pearl says, "Or Woman: You haven't changed, but you've changed for the better."

Calin says, "Sorry, that's a contradiction."

Akili asks, "Could it be that men don't like women to change because what the woman might consider good change messes with the idea of perfection the man has of her?"

Pearl says, "I know. It's to point out how someone can become a better person and still be true to themselves (because they realized their potential)."

Calin says, "change & !change = false."

Pearl says, "Yes, Akili."

Pearl says, "'potential + person = men's def. of change'"

Calin exclaims, "Any difference is change!"

Calin says, "it's what change means."

Calin says, "You cannot be different and still be the same."

Calin says, "Period."

Pearl says, "Okay. I see that. But to mean there are degrees of change."

Pearl says, "to me, sorry."

Calin says, "I can always change my name, if that's what you mean."

Calin grins.

Kimia giggles.

Calin says, "No, you can change in some ways, be remain the same in others."

Pearl asks, "Right. Is that changing who you are then?"

Calin says, "Define who I am."

Pearl exclaims, "Exactly!"

Calin shakes his head.

Pearl exclaims, "You got it!"

Akili thinks he'd say yes.

Calin says, "I'm telling you to define the expression 'who you are.'"

Pearl exclaims, "I know you are. I'm saying that's exactly the question under all of this mess!"

Calin says, "I don't think so."

"What does 'who you are' mean?" asks Calin.

Kimia says, "One person has many elements to them. Makes it hard to define 'who you are'."

Calin says, "You asked if changing one element changes who a person is."

Pearl says, "Right, Kimia. You change one element and the person is still who the person was, to some degree."

Calin says, "I in return asked you what defines who a person is."

Pearl says, "The elements that make up a person, help define a person."

Calin says, "Lets look at it this way."

Kimia says, "But I could change some element in my life and I could be a totally different person."

Pearl says, "Right, Kimia. That's why it's tricky."

Kimia thinks of her mother.

Calin says, "If I meet a girl and fall in love with who she is (which to me means: pretty, interested in gaming, etc), and then she changes her interests and no longer games... Then who she is has changed."

Calin says, "I don't care if she's the same in all other ways, the ways the I used to define her have changed."

Pearl asks, "No longer games, or is no longer interested in gaming?"

Calin says, "You know what I mean."

Calin says, "If she changes one of the core things that I define her by, then to me she is different."

Calin says, "Even if to her it was a small change."

Pearl says, "Let's discuss 'core thing' then."

Calin says, "It's whatever traits one person thinks of when thinking of another."

Calin says, "For alot of my life, people have defined me at least partly by my hair."

Kimia needs to find her gloves.

Calin says, "If I were to cut it short or shave it off, that would be a huge difference, even though it's only superficial."

Kimia laughs and would hate if you took your eyes out.

Calin says, "There's another."

Pearl says, "Okay, but I consider the 'core' part of you, not to include your hair. Perhaps because I'm not superficial."

Calin says, "Sure."

"Let me ask you then, how do you define me?" asks Calin.

Kimia says, "One would like to think they don't look for the superficial. But most do."

Pearl says, "Personality. Tendencies."

Calin says, "Superficial or not doesn't matter, I'm getting at 'core traits.'"

Calin says, "Ok. Suppose my tendancies changed."

"Would I be the same person?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Then I would say NO, you'd have changed."

"Well... Who are you to tell me which traits I should define myself by?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "I'm talking core traits."

Calin says, "Core to you."

Calin says, "It's all a matter of opinion."

Pearl says, "No, universal core traits."

Calin says, "No such thing."

Kimia says, "So what are core traits? Doesn't everyone choose different ones they focus on."

Calin says, "That's what I'm saying."

Pearl says, "Okay, I'm saying people define themselves a certain way."

Calin says, "Which is where this whole issue of changing comes from I think."

Pearl says, "Then there's the way 'they are'."

Akili rumbles lightly, "How an individual defines himself is not necessarily how other people view that person."

Calin says, "Exactly."

Pearl says, "Right, but it's deeper."

"What do you mean?" asks Calin.

The balmy stillness falls over the warm courtyard.

Pearl says, "There's our perspective of ourselves: how we see us, how others see us, etc. Then there's how we are, what makes us up."

Akili rumbles lightly, "The latter may be true, but I'd find it difficult or impossible to classify it."

Pearl says, "I IDENTIFY myself as a tall blond person, but the people around me see me as 'that nice quiet person in Marketing."

"Doesn't (how we see ourselves) + (how others see us) = (how we are) ?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "No. There's that whole tendencies and personality thing."

"Which is part of either how we see ourselves, or how others see us, isn't it?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "What's inside us: our tendencies to light fires, our open-minded perspectives, etc."

Calin says, "If it's an element that we don't see, and nobody else sees, it could change and noone would know."

Pearl asks, "So if a tree falls in the forest it doesn't make a sound?"

Calin says, "What I'm saying is that if nobody is aware of it, it is irrelevant."

Pearl says, "Maybe."

Calin says, "Until such time as people become aware, anyway."

Pearl says, "But we're not talking about what nobody notices."

Calin says, "No. Which means what we're talking about is either how we see ourselves, or how others see us, or both."

Pearl says, "Okay, let's go with that for now."

Calin says, "Ok."

Pearl says, "That means either you or another person has to know about your tendencies."

Calin says, "So, when a man says a woman has changed, it's because some element of how he sees her has changed."

Pearl says, "In that view, yes."

Calin says, "To her, it may be an inconsequential change, but to him, it is not."

Pearl says, "It makes sense when you view it that way."

Calin says, "Good."

Pearl says, "Let"

Pearl says, "let's apply this to the first half of that statement."

Calin says, "Now, because men tend to be superficial (please disagree), men don't want women to 'change.'"

Calin says, "And in this case, change can be something as simple as changing your style of clothes."

Pearl says, "I don't see how that follow."

Calin says, "And women may want men to change their style of clothes, but don't see it as a big deal."

Kimia says, "I can see how men would be bothered by it."

Pearl huffs.

Calin says, "Go ahead."

Pearl asks, "So you're saying men aren't superficial?"

Pearl says, "I think having certain clothes and having a tendencies to wear certain clothes are different."

Calin says, "I'm saying that they are, unless someone here has strong feelings otherwise."

Calin says, "What you own is irrelevant to the example. What you wear isn't."

Kimia says, "Some men like the way women dress and thast what attracts them to that woman. And by changing her look he's lost his interest."

Calin says, "Not necessarily lost interest, but otherwise yes."

Pearl says, "Women see the tendencies to wear clothes and may or may not chose that man. Or they may think that his wearing the clothes are just superficial, and thus not a 'core trait' and thus can be changed."

Calin nods.

Akili wonders.

Pearl asks, "So it sounds like you're saying men are superficial in that there are no core traits to them?"

Calin says, "I I suppose it all comes down to self-image vs your partners image of you."

Calin says, "NO."

Akili asks, "So is it that the idea of a man's potential, in a woman's eyes, are those things that can be changed that wouldn't affect the core traits she sees in him?"

Calin says, "Yes."

Calin says, "Exactly."

Kimia says, "So with the change of clothes the man now has to find something else about that woman that he found attractive."

Pearl exclaims, "Yes, Akili!"

Calin says, "Well, with the change of clothes (and clothes is a really superficial example, so not quite realistic) he has to reevaluate how attracted he is."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm glad we've finally cleared *that* up."

Pearl says, "Thanks to you, Akili."

Calin says, "However Pearl, what a woman thinks aren't core traits could well BE core traits."

Calin says, "And what a man thinks are core traits may not be."

Pearl says, "True. That's why there's always trouble."

Akili nods to Calin. "For both sides it's a matter of viewpoint."

Calin says, "Which is where there's trouble."

Kimia says, "We all have our own opinions of what core traits are."

Calin says, "However, since a man often looks for 'perfection' from the start, the trouble comes when she changes."

Pearl says, "Wow. So it's all point of view (and thus lack of communication)."

Akili has another question.

Calin says, "And since the woman looks for potential, the trouble is when he won't change."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Oh. Actually, nevermind; I think I know the answer already."

Calin says, "Go ahead though."

Calin says, "Enlighten us with your thoughts."

Pearl says, "Yes, Calin. A woman changes what she considers to be superficial things. Her core traits are the same to her."

Calin says, "And the man won't change what she considers superficial."

Pearl says, "Sometimes, right."

Calin says, "Because they may be core to him."

Akili asks, "Man looks for perfection in a woman. A woman looks for a man in which, with a few changes, could be perfection to her. What's the accuracy of that?"

Calin says, "Right for the man part. I'll let Pearl answer the second half."

Pearl says, "Fairly accurate."

Calin says, "Good."

Pearl says, "Knowing there is no such thing as perfection, the woman looks for the closest, most secure pleasing man."

Calin says, "And men look for women which they are happy with. Not necessarily WILL BE happy with, but are."

The balmy stillness falls across the warm grass.

Akili rumbles lightly, "That could probably be an interesting example of appreciating what you have versus never quite being satisfied in the proper circumstances. :)"

Akili puts a comma after satisfied.

Pearl says, "Since she is on a quest to ever improve herself, it's natural for her to assume he'll do the same."

Calin says, "I think it's an example of instant gratification vs planned perfection."

Akili rumbles lightly, "That could also be."

Calin smiles. "By Jove I think we've got it."

Pearl says, "Yeah, since women naturally think ahead and men look for the now."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "So we're basically back where we started. The evolution explanation."

Calin says, "Nah. We don't need to know why we act differently."

Pearl says, "Just that we do."

Calin says, "We act differently because we're different."

Calin says, "Right."

Calin says, "And in what ways we think differently."

Calin says, "I now know enough to (hopefully) avoid certain pitfalls."

Pearl says, "Yup. So don't you expect static perfection and we shouldn't expect long-range change."

"Don't you?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "I think the lesson here is to make sure you consider your partner's self-image, as well as your image of them."

Pearl says, "But I can't keep asking men in my life whether they think something is a core trait or not..."

Akili asks, "Why not?"

Akili grins.

"Yeah, why not?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "That's tedious."

"Is it worse than risking being wrong?" asks Calin.

Akili asks, "Are there really that many things you'd want to ask about before trying to change?"

Pearl says, "'Do you mind vacuuming for me? Or were you expecting me to clean the house all the time for the rest of our lives?' like this>"

Calin says, "Well, that's kind of a different story."

Pearl asks, "How?"

Calin says, "Because it doesn't have to do with self-image as much as tolerance."

Akili has an idea of how to answer that.

Pearl says, "What if the perfection you speak of is the core trait of cleaning."

Calin says, "I will clean the house when I feel it is dirty."

Calin says, "If you clean it before then, cool."

"See what I mean?" asks Calin.

Kimia nods and knows that one.

Pearl asks, "What if the perfection is that she'll always do it before you?"

Pearl asks, "Then I 'change' if I don't want to clean today?"

Calin says, "Well, if that's a preconception, you should be aware of it."

Pearl says, "That's what I'm saying. I'd have to ask about that small thing."

Calin says, "Anyway, I wouldn't expect you to be cleaning a guys house when you first start dating."

Pearl hmmms.

Calin says, "And it's perfectly reasonable to ask if he expects it of you before moving in."

Pearl says, "But that's what I'm saying. Cleaning is not one thing I consider as my 'core trait' so I wouldn't think to look for this in a man or to necessarily bring it up. It's a habit/superficial thing."

Pearl says, "Changeable."

Calin says, "If a man believes it's the woman's place to clean, then that's a core trait, and you should be aware of it before commiting."

Pearl says, "Right!"

Calin says, "So you ask."

Calin says, "Yes, of course you ask."

Calin says, "Never sign anything before knowing what's expected of you."

Pearl smiles.

Calin says, "Before you move in, make it clear you won't be doing all the cleaning."

Calin says, "Unless you're willing to change that for him."

Pearl says, "I'd think that the expectation of a woman to clean all the time would be part of a man's personality, and thus show."

Calin says, "I would think so too, but you never know."

Pearl says, "I know."

Pearl says, "Good stuff to know here."

Calin says, "Man, that would be a perfect relationship. Where both people freely communicated, and asked each other everything."

Calin says, "Rather than just assuming, and being wrong."

Pearl says, "No, it's be a healthy relationship, not perfect."

Calin says, "Define perfect."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I've read many times that one of best components of a lasting relationship is communication."

Pearl says, "Most things have a way of coming up anyway, it's how you handle it that counts at that point."

Calin says, "As have I. And yet, don't cound on getting it."

Pearl asks, "You don't count on getting good communication?"

Calin says, "No."

Pearl asks, "Huh?"

Akili nods, and can see problems just with that principle between his brother and Sara.

Calin says, "People don't communicate. Especially women, when something is bothering them."

Pearl says, "That's a terrible assumption."

Calin says, "It's true, from my experience."

Akili has heard nothing and nevermind more often than he could count, unfortunately.

Calin says, "What's wrong? 'nothing.'"

Pearl says, "Perhaps you need to readjust your definition of communicate,"

Akili rumbles lightly, "Communication: A dialog between two or more people."

Pearl says, "Women work by other devices than oral communication. That's another difference between men and women."

Calin says, "My idea of communicate is this: What's wrong? I'm just not attracted to you anymore, I'm sorry."

Calin says, "Which annoys men something fierce."

Calin says, "Women KNOW men don't communicate through 'other devices,' and yet they insist on doing it anyway."

Pearl says, "We do what's natural. So do you! I don't fault you for it."

Calin says, "Yes... but it's far easier for you to communicate in the common language than for us to learn yours."

Pearl says, "I'll ignore that for a second. Consider this:"

Akili rumbles lightly, "If a woman tries to convey something to a man using one of those 'other devices' that men aren't as capable of using (or using well), then there's your lack of communication right there."

Pearl says, "Right."

The warm calm settles on the ivy clinging to the wall.

Calin waits to consider.

Pearl says, "But they can learn to read the signals and help put her communication orally."

Pearl says, "For example, if I'm really upset, I can't talk. What should I do? Well, the only way to get that I'm upset across is to give clues."

"Why risk disaster until we learn, when you could just use words?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "See above."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm not quite so sure about that. Very obvious signals (yelling, plate throwing, etc.), yes. Subtle things - a slight tilt of the head, a shift in the eyes - no, or very unlikely."

"And with the platethrowing... WHAT's the matter?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "I might have no clue."

Pearl says, "No, I'm talking about crying, small short-word answers, sighs."

Akili chuckles. "I was exaggerating, but you have a point."

Pearl says, "Thank you Akili."

Calin says, "If you're crying, I will understand that something is bothering you."

Calin says, "We rarely have trouble identifying these signs."

Akili is quiet in general. When he's really quiet, he might not have anything to say, or he might just have a stomachache. Good luck telling which is which.

Pearl says, "So, once you know that something's bothering me, be patient and help me get it out orally."

Calin exclaims, "Right. 'What's wrong?' Nothing. "What's wrong?" Nevermind. "What's wrong" QUIT FREAKING BOTHERING ME ABOUT IT!"

Pearl says, "I don't see that happening with a woman."

Calin says, "We have one phrase for 'what's wrong.'"

Calin says, "It's 'what's wrong.'"

Calin says, "That was a bit exaggerated."

Pearl says, "Okay, then you have to try adding some non-oral things. Touch her hand, let her know you care if she's upset or not."

Calin says, "We don't tend to speak that language."

Calin says, "Now, I'm exaggerating again."

Pearl says, "If you don't care, that's her worst nightmare. ...You can't touch her hand? You can vocalize saying 'I care.'"

Calin says, "Men do know some of this stuff."

Akili thinks. NVSL. Non-Verbal as a Second Language.

Calin says, "It can be frustrating beyond belief though."

Pearl says, "I'll teach NVSL courses, Akili." Pearl laughs.

Calin says, "If I didn't care, I wouldn't ask."

Pearl asks, "What's frustrating?"

Pearl exclaims, "How are women to know that? You didn't say it?!"

Calin says, "Getting a woman to tell you what's wrong."

Calin says, "Sure I did. Ask Kimia."

Pearl says, "I promise you, if you get it across to the woman that you sincerely care if she's upset, she'll open up."

Calin exclaims, "After a while I stopped asking, or after the first 'nothing.' I'd say good, cause I'm in a great mood!"

Kimia says, "Calin and I've had that whats wrong, nothing conversation many times."

Pearl says, "There's a different in the tone of voice too remember, Mr. Oral."

Akili went through an entire school year with one of his female friends only telling him that he'd done something she could never forgive, but refusing to ever tell him about it.

Pearl says, "Okay, but don't group all women, Akili."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm not."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I'm just saying that I've seen it a lot, and not just indirectly."

Pearl says, "Sometimes, it becomes a game to some women, just because it's so frustrating to get what you want."

Akili rumbles lightly, "I did eventually find out, and I understood her reasons for not telling me, but it was frustrating."

Akili chuckles. "Once it becomes a game, though, it can be hard for the man to know if she's playing or not."

Pearl exclaims, "I know. I don't like when women play games like that!!"

Calin says, "For me, playing the game too often (game or not) is like crying wolf."

Pearl exclaims, "I totally agree!"

Calin says, "For every time I hear 'nothing,' I'm a little less inclined to ask next time."

Akili recalls Sara calling his brother near midnight because she got a paper cut from a cardboard box, and was upset when Dave 'didn't care'.

Pearl says, "I understand. Bt I hope you understand that she needs to know you WANT to know the true answer."

Calin says, "If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't ask."

Calin says, "Period."

Pearl says, "Exacly, Akili. That's a perfect example."

Pearl says, "But I may not hear it in the tone of your voice. How can I tell if you're telling the truth about caring."

Calin says, "Let me ask you something."

Akili had to side with his brother on that one.

"Why would a guy pretend to care?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Men lie, so we have to use other clues about what you're saying."

Kimia says, "Well you have to trust that he cares."

Calin says, "Men lie to get sex."

Kimia laughs.

Pearl exclaims, "Oh, my gosh!! Yes, I've known MANY guys who pretend to care!!"

"Why?" asks Calin.

"Why did they pretend to care?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "You already said it."

Akili asks, "Do all roads lead to sex, though?"

"Yes, but if the relationship has already passed that point, why lie?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "To give her what he thinks she needs."

"Isn't that caring?" asks Calin.

Akili retracts his question as Calin asks a better one.

Pearl says, "Pacify her."

"If he wants to give her what she needs, doesn't he care?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Shut her up."

Calin says, "he could just ignore her."

Pearl says, "No, not necessarily."

"Why not?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Give her want she needs just to pacify her so she'll do what he wants."

Pearl says, "Look at Becca."

"Uh... what about her?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Well, no, nevermind."

Kimia says, "Welll I'm going to go for now. I'll talk to you guys laters."

Akili waves to Kimia.

Calin says, "And I'd rather not, thanks."

Pearl waves.

Kimia waves. "Bye and don't stare at Becca too long. Its bad for your health."

Kimia has disconnected.

"Ok, back to becca. What were you saying?" asks Calin.

Pearl asks, "Doesn't Stack do what Becca wants? Do you really think it's to make her happy, as the ultimate end? Or does he do it so she'll leave him alone, or will be 'happy' and not kill herself or whatever?"

The warm calm falls on the trees.

Calin says, "He does it because he doesn't want her to kill hersefl."

"Doesn't that mean he cares?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Well, hang on."

Pearl says, "He cares about not feeling guilty about her supposed death. He cares about not making trouble."

Calin says, "Good point. However he does care."

"What does she want him to care about?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "We sorta had this conversation on Friday."

Calin says, "Nah. We talked about what she wants in general."

Pearl says, "Okay, that's a question I can't answer for Becca. I think if she really had an answer, most of their porblems would go away."

Calin says, "Right. So the woman in general, who says 'nothing.'"

Pearl says, "Right."

Calin says, "She wants to know that he cares, but he wouldn't ask if he didn't."

"So what does she specifically want him to care about?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "That's the one I can't answer."

Calin says, "Ok, lets take you."

Pearl says, "Okay."

Pearl asks, "What about me?"

"If I asked you what's wrong, and you couldn't answer, or said nothing... Why would would you?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "As I said before, I may be too upset to be able to speak."

Calin says, "Gotcha."

Calin says, "That's different, I think."

Pearl says, "Or if I said 'nothing' I think it's usually because I think whatever's making me upset is a big deal and will take time. I need confirmation that you'd care to take the time to find out."

Calin says, "More than just asking what's wrong."

Pearl says, "Yup."

"Well... if I didn't care why would I ask?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "I fear stopping in the middle of a deep conversation for a superficial reasons. So I really want to make sure you want to continue."

Calin says, "I'm afraid I didn't quite follow that."

Pearl says, "And if I'm going to share this big thing that's bothering me, I'm opening myself up to heing hurt. I need some reassurance that you're not going to hurt me."

Calin says, "Oh oh I get it."

Pearl asks, "yeah?"

Calin says, "Aside from past experience."

Pearl asks, "Why aside from past?"

Calin says, "No, I mean I understood about not wanting to stop for superficial reasons."

Calin says, "Yeah. I have to prove myself again before we have this conversation. Last time only got me a one-problem ticket."

Pearl says, "hang on, work calls."

Calin nods.

The warm stillness falls across the grass.

Akili goes to get some food.

Pearl says, "I'm back."

Calin waves.

Pearl asks, "Calin, you were saying something about past experiences?"

Calin says, "Yeah. I have to prove myself again before we have this conversation. Last time only got me a one-problem ticket."

Pearl asks, "Huh?"

Calin says, "I was saying that you can't rely on past experience, to know that I'm not going to hurt you."

Pearl says, "Right."

Calin says, "Why not"

"?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "I'm missing something."

- Pearl says, "And if I'm going to share this big thing that's bothering me, I'm opening myself up to heing hurt. I need some reassurance that you're not going to hurt me."

Pearl says, "'Hurt me' can be in a lot of way. Like leaving before the conversation is through for superficial reasons (bathroom, bored, etc.)."

Calin says, "Yes, but if this has happened before, and the person in question proved they were trustworthy..."

Pearl says, "Women know that people have moods. Maybe you're not in the mood to listen this time."

A warm calm settles across the grass.

"Why test them?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "Oh."

Pearl says, "Well we most definitely won't open up if you're an untrustworthy person (core trait). But if it's a mood thing, with the same person from last time, that's different."

Calin says, "Hrm, ok."

Calin says, "Well, I don't think the whole non-verbal communication thing will get cleared up."

Calin says, "We've kind of wound down, and I don't feel like we're making any enlightening progress on it."

Pearl asks, "What still needs clearing up? I only see that women have many ways to communicate and men want it all to be verbal,right?"

Calin says, "Pretty much."

Pearl says, "Nothing to discuss there. Only that we need to be aware of each other's ways."

Calin says, "With the other I came to better understand things, so in the future I might take more precautions about my image of someone, and their self image."

Calin says, "With this... Other than understanding that women are difficult, I'm not getting anywhere."

Pearl says, "Hey, I'd hope that you've learn to better communicate with women."

Pearl says, "DOn't just put up a block by saying they're 'difficult'."

Calin says, "The problem seems to be all on the other end though. Not much I can do."

Pearl says, "What? That's terrible."

Calin grins, expecting a reaction.

Pearl asks, "Oh, so you're willingly difficult and hard to communicate with?"

Calin says, "Nope. I use plain english, and accepted common language."

Pearl says, "Just so you know, that's something superficial that some woman may want to change about you."

Calin says, "Er, an."

Calin says, "I know that it's possible to run the gauntlet and survive a non-verbal encounter, but I haven't learned anything that would make it easier."

Pearl says, "However knowing you better, I may attritute it as a core trait." Pearl smiles.

Calin grins.

Calin says, "And yes, I am comparing it to a very strenuous and dangerous physical test."

Pearl asks, "What do you need to know, since we're having a productive conversation?"

Calin says, "Well, ideally a simple way to get around the difficulty, and establish communication."

Pearl asks, "What would prepare you for this 'stenuous and dangerous physical test'?"

Pearl asks, "The difficulty?"

Pearl asks, "What do you mean?"

Calin says, "The block between one person and another, which prevents communication. The 'nothing.'"

Akili rumbles lightly, "Nothing, nevermind, I don't want to talk about it, complete silence, that sort of thing."

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "Oh, that's easy to overcome."

Calin listens.

Pearl says, "I thought I already told you."

Calin must have missed it.

Pearl says, "You touch her hand and say that you care, sincerely."

Calin takes notes. "Touch her hand. Got it."

Pearl says, "You be persistent, that shows her you care."

Pearl exclaims, "Sometimes a guy will stop asking and give up a second before I'm about to spill it. That's the worst!"

"So if I touch her hand and ask 'what's wrong' enough times, I'll get through?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "You could always just spill it earlier."

Pearl says, "No, not just 'what's wrong?'"

Pearl says, "Sometimes you gotta vary it: use those speach skills."

Akili rumbles lightly, "It's not like we have a progress meter to go by. Who knows, maybe you sincerely don't want to talk about it right now."

Calin says, "Speech."

Calin nods.

Calin says, "And if it's a problem with me, asking again may incur your wrath."

Pearl says, "Peachy speech."

Akili rumbles lightly, "There are certain things *I'm* not likely to talk about, however pressed."

Pearl says, "That's why you ask 'did I do something?'. Usually if it's a 'no' that's easy to say."

Calin says, "You may not realize it, but it can be a very fine line to walk. On the one side, you succeed. On the other, a terrible, unbreachable wall is thrown up between you."

Akili chuckles. "Was it something I did?" "How could you *possibly* not know, you *jerk*!"

Calin says, "The risk is too great sometimes, so guys stop asking."

Pearl says, "Then you talk about what you might not have done wrong..."

Calin says, "Not because they don't care, but because they're afraid."

Pearl says, "hang on there."

Pearl says, "That's a terrible thing for a woman to say."

Calin says, "I agree. That kind of thing does happen, but there's a trait you want to avoid."

Pearl asks, "Wouldn't you like to know what you did wrong though, if you're talking to the right woman?"

Pearl asks, "What if it's something simple?"

Calin says, "For every word we say that does not get us the answer, the size of our error goes up one notch."

Pearl exclaims, "Maybe the woman wants to talk about it, but how do you approach a fragile guys's ego with 'You did something wrong, let's talk'?!"

A balmy calm falls over the warm ivy clinging to the wall.

Calin says, "If we ask what's wrong, and get a nothing, it might be simple. If we press further, and still get nothing, it's worse than that."

Calin says, "Let's examine that."

Calin says, "You did something wrong."

"That's kind of presumptive, isn't it?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "She wouldn't say it like that, that's my point of it being hard to approach in conversation."

Calin says, "If she's thinking it though..."

Akili rumbles lightly, "You did something I feel is wrong would probably be more accurate."

Pearl says, "So now there's something wrong, but it's hard to bring up orally, which he expects..."

Calin says, "Why would someone do something that is 'wrong?'"

"Can't I discern right from wrong?" asks Calin.

Pearl says, "Okay, 'wrong' in that it hurts someone."

Calin says, "Ok."

Calin says, "Well an easy way to get that point across is: 'You hurt me.'"

Pearl says, "So you did something to hurt me' is more accurate."

Calin says, "That will get his attention, without necessarily throwing up his defenses."

Pearl says, "Right."

Calin says, "Take notes, children. "'Wrong' is probably the wrong word to use.

Pearl says, "But the woman's upset, remember, she's not thinking in the form of correct oral statements."

"So we just have to put up with whatever she gives us?" asks Calin.

Calin says, "Sounds an aweful lot like standing in front of a wave, and trying to weather it."

Pearl says, "No, you have to understand that for the moment she may not be thinking clearly because she's upset."

Calin says, "I don't think that holds up in court."

Pearl exclaims, "So can you blame us for not talking?!"

Pearl says, "If we talk, we say the wrong thing."

Calin says, "Guys learn to control themselves. Well, not all guys. But it's unacceptable for us not to."

Pearl says, "Same for women. We control by not talking when we know we wouldn't have control."

Calin says, "So what you're saying is that there are times when you just need to leave women alone."

Pearl says, "NO! Well, sure there are times. But I have to say for me, I almost never want to be left alone when I'm upset."

Akili rumbles lightly, "So we can't leave you alone, we can't talk verbally, and men don't do non-verbal communication well. Talk about your lack of options. :)"

Calin nods.

Pearl says, "You can talk verbally, I never said you couldn't."

Pearl says, "You can touch, is that so hard?!"

Akili rumbles lightly, "But there's no point if you're not currently able to articulate your problem."

Calin says, "And say what? Until we know the nature of the problem, some words are dangerous."

Calin nods.

Pearl takes a deep breath.

Akili rumbles lightly, "No, that's not so hard. I'll certainly remember that."

Akili thinks for a moment.

Akili rumbles lightly, "I guess the best thing to do...."

Pearl says, "Words aren't just for solving problems. Sometimes words comfort."

Akili rumbles lightly, "Would be to try to comfort her, rather than get her to say anything about what's bothering her just yet."

Pearl exclaims, "Exactly, Akili!"

Pearl says, "Perfect."

Pearl says, "NOW, we're getting somewhere."

Calin says, "Right. So you go up, and you touch her hand, and you say... 'Worrying... will get you nowhere.'"

Calin grins.

Pearl says, "No, silly."

Akili nearly spits out his mouthful of soda.

Calin grins. "Back to the woods, I guess."

Pearl exclaims, "Paw's actually tried that one on me, Calin!"

Calin says, "Whoa."

Akili rumbles lightly, "And he lives to tell the tale? I'm impressed. ;)"

Calin says, "That was what the prince told Jack's mother, when she thought Jack was dead."

Calin says, "Of course, I've told Kimia that too."

Pearl says, "I meant the 'worrying' line, not the into the woods one."

Calin says, "Because she gets upset when she can't see the future."

Pearl says, "Because you can't use logic on women when they're upset. All they care about is being comforted and cared for."

Calin says, "No, it helped with Kimia."

Pearl says, "Well, she must have calmed down enough to listen."

Calin says, "Like when we were on the side of the freeway in oregon, at about 10pm, with the truck dead."

Pearl says, "And you must have said it as a comfort, not as advice. Or at least that's probably how she took it."

Calin says, "She wanted to freak out, curl up into a ball, and give up."

Pearl says, "Yup, she needed comfort and reassurance that all will be well."

Calin says, "I think what I told her was that tomorrow would still come, regardless of her giving up. She'd do alot better when it did come if she hadn't given up."

Calin says, "Then this weird guy with only one ear picked us up, and drove us to my sister's house."

Pearl says, "That's too deep for me if I'm in the too-upset-to-talk moment."

Calin says, "Well it worked for her."

Pearl says, "Cool."

Calin says, "Heck, it works for me."

Pearl says, "When I know I'm cared for, it will work perfectly for me too."

Calin says, "That's what keeps me from giving up when things are really bad. The fact that with my plans or against them, tomorrow still happens."

Pearl says, "See, that's depressing for me, like that."

Calin says, "Not me."

Pearl says, "okay."

Calin says, "It means don't give up, because no good will come of it."

Pearl says, "See, I guess I'm just a quitter in some ways."

Calin says, "And since I'm not usually ready to kill myself to keep the sun from rising in the morning, I just keep going."

The steady calm falls on the warm grass.

Pearl says, "I can see how not worrying will work in that advice, but not the 'not giving up' part."

Pearl says, "Sometimes giving up and trying something else is better."

Calin says, "Well... I agree."

Calin says, "I meant giving up in a more universal way."

Pearl says, "yeah, I know."

Calin says, "For example, out on that freeway... the only way to 'give up,' would be to curl up in a ball and hope things look better when you open your eyes."

Calin says, "Which they rarely will."

Pearl says, "Right."

Pearl says, "Thanks Calin (and Akili), this has been very informative."

Akili smiles. "Certainly one of the more fascinating conversations I've been a part of."

Calin nods.

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