(From RussellMUCK 8/4/03)

["Azizi"] says, "I think I am going to buy that 1500[wiki:Volt-ampere VA] [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] once I get up the $200 to get it."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "That's a hefty battery. But you're not running a low-power system, either."

["Akili"] hmms. "If the power went out here and I *needed* to stay online... I'd probably hook up my laptop instead."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "I even have cut my output voltage from my [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s down to around 95 volts to keep the batteries running longer and I don't get much up time anymore. Also these batteries are old and probably need replacing too. What I like about that unit as well is that as advertised it is supposed to have 160 minutes uptime. With the additional optional battery upgrade you can increase that too 360 minutes."

["Azizi"] grrs as there is another hole in the roof.

["Azizi"] says, "If I get that [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] I will use my 500s for my moniter and sound."

["Akili"] sings o/~ Now I'm towing my car, there's a hole in the roof, my possessions are causing me suspicion but there's no proof-

["Akili"] considers sound to be a low priority in a power outage.

["Azizi"] nods. "Well when I have a [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] that is supposed to give me 6 hours uptime I think I can afford the luxury of sound."

["Akili"] grins. "Which means you have a better [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] than you need. :)"

["Azizi"] says, "I will use the big one for my computer alone. The 500 for my moniter and modem, and the other 500 for my sound."

["Akili"] laughs. "Sheesh."

["Akili"] has a 650 for his computer, monitor and switch, and a 350 powering his cable modem and hub.

["Azizi"] says, "However I am not certain about the sound. I might use that [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] for my TV/VCR/DVR."

["Azizi"] says, "Well I am also pulling much more power than you."

["Azizi"] says, "My CPU alone pulls around 70 watts."

["Azizi"] says, "And from what I understand my video card pulls another 100-150."

["Azizi"] says, "Then I have two 7200RPM hard drives a DVD rom and a CDRW"

["Akili"] checks his connections, and realizes that his [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] may not be powering his switch after all. "I'll have to fix that."

["Azizi"] says, "I was just giving you an idea of just how much power I am pulling."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "One of these days I want to pick up one of those watt-usage meters."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Oh, I have no doubt that it's a lot."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "And I'll be facing the same thing when I upgrade my computer."

["Azizi"] does as well to know just how much her system is pulling.

["Azizi"] says, "And one thing I have noticed with the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s is that since most computers pull more heftier [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s are cheaper now."

["Azizi"] says, "I was shocked to see that [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] for only $200. I was looking at that or a similar [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] rather a couple years ago and was looking at around $1000."

["Akili"] asks, "A 1500 [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] for only $200? Are you serious?"

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "Best buy."

["Azizi"] says, "An upgradeable [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] for $200."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Wow. Okay, that's a significant exception. In my experience, they haven't really changed that much."

["Azizi"] says, "As you can put another battery in it."

["Akili"] asks, "Right. What brand?"

["Azizi"] says, "[wiki:American_Power_Conversion APC]."

["Akili"] blinks. "Wow."

["Azizi"] nods, "That is what I did and said when I saw it."

["Azizi"] says, "Actually my reaction was more like this."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "That's not an average price, to my knowledge."

["Azizi"] blinks, "Holy shit!"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "For example, I know [http://www.pcconnection.com PC Connection] is hardly the lowest price on the market, but a 1500 [wiki:American_Power_Conversion APC] Smart-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] through them is nearly $500."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Hm. That is cheaper, I suppose."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "It's just that the lower capacity ones haven't been comparitively less expensive."

["Azizi"] says, "I think that is the one I saw."

["Azizi"] says, "Yup that's the one I saw."

["Azizi"] says, "Go to [http://www.apc.com www.apc.com] and select the united states as your country."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Okay."

["Azizi"] says, "From there select the products tab on the top of the site, then select [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS], then PC & Workstation [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]."

["Azizi"] says, "The last one on that page should be the Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] RS"

["Azizi"] says, "Select the BR1500 model."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "$300 from them. Not bad at all."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Not that I have that much to spend right now."

["Azizi"] frowns and sees just why her [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] isn't lasting long enough.

["Azizi"] says, "Using that 1500 and assuming I use about 300 watts I should only have 20 minutes runtime with that."

["Azizi"] says, "70 with the extra battery."

["Azizi"] says, "I want to go ahead and run my batteries in parralell to pick up the bonus time you get from extra batteries."

["Azizi"] says, "And if you check out the watages and such you will see just why [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]'s are getting cheaper. Even this 1500 will only run like I said 20 minutes at 300 watts which is what the suggested minimum power supply is now."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Well, that's what a power supply is capable of running at, not what it's always draining."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "Yes but it means that most computers are pulling more than the 200 or 250 that used to be the standard or pushing them close to thier natural limits."

["Akili"] sees the Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] 650 that he has for $129 through [wiki:American_Power_Conversion APC], and he got it at Fry's_Electronics for $100 several years ago.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "The bigger ones are getting less prohibitively expensive, but the smaller ones don't seem to be changing much."

["Azizi"] says, "Well I have seen even 1000s cheaper than before. I think I saw some [wiki:American_Power_Conversion APC] ones for $150"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Let's see... the 1000 of the same series is $250. So it'd have to be one of those $100 off specials, which, now that I think about it, is when I got mine."

["Akili"] needs a bigger bedroom.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Using my laptop in an emergency like that is great... except I don't really have a comfortable place to use it."

["Akili"] also likes the Smart-series of [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s that have the battery charge indicator on the front.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Pity they cost so darned much."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I don't want to drain a [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] until it's absolutely dead, as lead-acid batteries really don't like that; their cells start collapsing. And the cheaper models don't have any way to see battery charge remaining, even through the data cable."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Mine will indicate when it thinks the battery is low, but it's wrong."

["Azizi"] nods, "Mine too."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "It says it's low in about five minutes. I ran it once for 25 minutes."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "That was my computer, monitor, and stereo."

["Azizi"] hrms, "What I am seeing about this 1500VA makes me think it sucks worse than some 1000s."

["Akili"] asks, "Not all [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s are made equal, no, but what are you reading that's bad?"

["Azizi"] says, "According to the website this 1500 with two batteries, so equivilent to a 3000 and only having 155 watts pulled will run a whopping two minutes and eightteen seconds."

["Akili"] blinks. "That can't be right."

["Azizi"] says, "That is what I am thinking."

["Akili"] frowns. "Although..."

["Azizi"] blushes, "Oops. I misread that. It is hours and minutes. Not minutes and seconds."

["Akili"] compares some 500 models out of his magazine.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Ahh. But there are still some discrepancies here."

- Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] ES 500: 20 minutes under 325 watt load

- Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] CS 500: 12 minutes under 300 watt load

- Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] LS 500: 14 minutes under 315 watt load

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "Well each different model might have some different built in features that pull power of thier own."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Oh."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Hmm. That may be true, but I don't think that's all of it."

["Azizi"] says, "If you have a power meter that is going to pull extra power that one without a power meter will."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I'm noticing here that the 500 and 350 and so on are matching up to the max VA capacity of the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Not the actual total amperage of the battery."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I think that despite the equal numbers, they do not have equal batteries."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "For example, a Back-[wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] ES 725 was a 3 minute runtime under 450 watts. My 650 has a 6 minute runtime under 400 watts. That's not much of a difference in wattage for the uptime."

["Azizi"] says, "Yes it is."

["Azizi"] says, "Here is something to think about."

["Akili"] points to the identical numbers previous.

["Akili"] asks, "Why would one last 20 minutes at 325 and another last 12 at 300?"

["Azizi"] says, "If I get that 1500VA and it is supposed to have 160 minutes up time. I add another 1500VA battery and more than double my up time."

["Azizi"] says, "The more VA you have and the less power you use compounds the amount of uptime you get."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Of course. I'm just saying that the VA is not indicating the total capacity of the battery. Just what it is capable of handling."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "A triple-A cell and a D-cell have the same max voltage output, but different amperages."

["Azizi"] nods, "True, but usually it is an indication of the battery. Each of those different models may have different number of lights, plugs, features, amount of power used by those features and USB cable connecting the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] to computer."

["Azizi"] says, "Yeah but you are forgetting something."

["Azizi"] says, "VA has nothing to do with voltage."

["Azizi"] says, "It has to deal with a calculation that tells you how many watts it can handle."

["Azizi"] says, "Most [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] batteries are either 12v or 24v."

["Azizi"] says, "I think that most of them are 24v now."

["Akili"] checks that, and nods. "True enough. But that's still only max output."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "And the closer you get to the max output the amount of uptime drops drastically."

["Azizi"] says, "And the farther you get from max output increases your uptime exponentially."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Right. However, just from looking at the model numbers, there is no way of knowing which [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] battery will last the longest."

["Azizi"] says, "Yes you can."

["Azizi"] says, "Fairly accurately."

["Azizi"] says, "That is why they don't call it by the amount of watts or amps. They tell you the number based on a calculation. The VA calculation."

["Azizi"] says, "It won't be dead on. But it will be fairly close."

["Akili"] asks, "So what does 500 VA tell you by itself?"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "That it handles up to a 500 VA draw."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Hm."

["Akili"] grins. "So, here's a question."

["Akili"] asks, "How much more capacity can you give a 500 VA-capable battery without increasing its VA rating?"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "In that list earlier, one had a 20 minute lifetime, and the other had a 12 minute lifetime with a slightly decreased wattage draw."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Obviously, a 650 is going to offer more power than a 500 would, but when it comes to otherwise identical 500 models, that's not quite as straightforward, so far as I can tell."

["Azizi"] says, "Well I don't know exactly how they do it nor the calculation anymore. But it also depends on the quality of the battery they are using. 500 VA is a calculation that they run on the battery. I would assume that there is at least a 10% allowable difference. I would almost bet that all three of those units use the same battery they just have different interntal components, enough to make a difference in the amount they draw."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "One of those is a rather large difference. For a 300 watt load to drain in 12 minutes while a 325 load to drain in *20* minutes, with the same 500 VA-rated battery... That makes the difference between the 650 and the 725 I mentioned later look downright trivial."

["Azizi"] says, "I am not sure. But like I said earlier. Even a small increase in the amount of wattage used can significantly drop how long it will last."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Right. My previous comment is inverted, of course."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "The battery that is drawing more is lasting longer."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Anyway, I'll have to keep that in mind when I go [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] shopping."

["Azizi"] says, "Well I don't know then."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I always figured that the VA rating was the capacity of the battery, not its max output. Now I know otherwise."

["Azizi"] says, "More features doesn't always mean better."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "No. But I'd sacrifice some power for a power meter on the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] itself. :)"

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "The Smart [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s have a load and a battery meter. That's all I'd care about on any of them."

["Azizi"] says, "Well as that 1500 is really cheap right now for some reason you can go that way and not worry about a power meter as you would have enough power to last until power is restored."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Probably. Not guaranteed, of course. And if power is out for a while, and you drain the battery completely, you might wreck the battery."

["Azizi"] says, "Well there is always the warning signal and I am pretty sure that given all the extra power you will have it will be fairly accurate and be wise to shut down when it goes off and not worry about it."

["Akili"] grins. "Especially with a system like yours."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I would hope so. I stopped using the serial cable with my [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Which means if my computer is on at home for remote access and the power is out for an extended amount of time, I'm screwed."

["Azizi"] says, "Me too. My warning signal is more than enough to give me time to shut down. However this last time it was going off the moment power went off and I just didn't have time as I had been running it through mini surges which drain it more than just having the power off."

["Azizi"] says, "Nope."

["Akili"] asks, "Nope?"

["Azizi"] says, "Nope."

["Akili"] asks, "What nope?"

["Azizi"] says, "This one has a USB cable that you can connect and when the warning alarm goes off will shut down your program and then your computer."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I still don't understand what you are saying nope to."

["Azizi"] says, "Well you won't be screwed if you aren't home."

["Azizi"] says, "It will automatically shut down your computer."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Yes I will. I said I disconnected the serial cable."

["Azizi"] says, "I mean if you get the new one and use the USB cable."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Uh-huh. I wasn't talking about a new one. I was talking about my current one."

["Azizi"] ahhs.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "My two comments *did* follow each other."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I'm not using the serial cable with my [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS], and if my computer is left on at home while the power goes out, that's it."

["Azizi"] says, "And that is why I said that this one has a USB cable."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Right. USB or serial doesn't matter."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Now, here's what I wonder."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "If the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s have a safety feature to protect them from ruining the battery when you don't have the software running."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "And if so, how useful it is when my [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] thinks the battery is almost drained when it's only been five minutes and I know it can last at least five times as long."

["Azizi"] says, "Yes."

["Azizi"] says, "However not like you would want."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Do tell."

["Azizi"] says, "It is a real pain really. I had a problem with my computer. But it only works if you run the software in the first place. IF you don't have the cable connected and you tell it it should be it will give your computer about 5 minutes uptime and then shut down automatically."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I see. So you're essentially setting an internal countdown timer within the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]."

["Azizi"] says, "Within your computer."

["Akili"] asks, "...What?"

["Azizi"] says, "The software on your computer will say "hey I can't talk to the [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] there is something wrong. I better wait a few minutes to see if it will talk back to me and if it doesn't I need to shut down the computer so nothing bad happens.""

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Oh. Well, that's freaking useless."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "And I don't call that battery protection."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Which is what I was asking about."

["Azizi"] says, "Well if your computer isn't running it isn't going to pull the battery."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "But the little indicator lights and other stupid drains some of these [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s obviously have will."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Your statement is accurate, even though it's more like something I'd expect from a lawyer. :)"

["Azizi"] nods, "I am just giving you what they would say."

["Akili"] asks, "Why, do you work for them?"

["Azizi"] says, "Or rather the theory behind their software rather."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Of course, my whole point was if there was any sort of protection *without* software."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I don't always have computers plugged into [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]s."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "I am not sure. If they were smart they would stop the battery from drawing when it got down to a certain level and turn off. But that would be smart."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "My cable modem and hub are being powered by a.... hm. Either a 350 or a 500 [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]. If the power was out for a couple days, it'd go dead, and there's no computer at all to talk to it."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "Actually."

["Azizi"] says, "I wonder if they would go out. They pull so little power, nah. They would probably be dead by then."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Right. That's what I was wondering. If the circuitry like that, if any, is better than the low-battery signal circuitry."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I've drained my [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] until it just shut off once. That's when I discovered that its 5-minute warning was a hoax. But I have not repeated the experiment, so I do not know if I have damaged the battery."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Obviously not severely."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "But this is a fairly basic [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS]."

["Azizi"] says, "So is mine."

["Akili"] nods. "I'd ask APC, but I don't think I'd get an answer I wanted, as you were so kindly demonstrating, however unnecessarily. ;)"

["Akili"] will have to consider if he will want his eventual fileserver on a [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS], too, and how he'll handle that if so.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "That I would want the software on, since I'm not concerned about uptime, just a graceful shutdown."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "It's my desktop that I want to get more time out of."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "As much time as I can safely wring out of the battery. And I have the wrong sort of [wiki:Uninterruptible_power_supply UPS] for that. :)"

["Azizi"] says, "If I had the money I would pick up at least two of the 1500s right now as I am wondering if it is a mistake."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Probably not."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "$100 off isn't unheard of."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I got mine that way."

["Azizi"] says, "Well even at $300 it is rather low. Did you check out some of the 1000 units. Around $900+"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Nope, didn't see anything around that price."

["Akili"] sees some fairly high-end 3000s for about $1,000.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Oh, and here's a 1400 for $2,399."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "But that is a rackmount that supports up to 5 additional batteries at $420 a pop, with 40 minutes per battery. The inital system runs for 7 minutes."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "So that kind of expansion is what you're really paying for."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "So, for about $4,500, you could get something that will run for 3 3/4 hours with a 1,000 watt draw."

["Akili"] grins. "Not bad."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "Or you could just buy a couple of the 1500s I was looking at and swap out when one runs low if you are around for that."

["Azizi"] says, "You would only need three to get the same amount of time as that $4500 unit."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Swapping them out would be difficult, of course."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Since you'd have to unplug the computer. As long as you don't mind turning it off, though, that's not so bad."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Or I could run my laptop off of my 650 and then my car battery jumpstarter for several hours. :)"

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I really only want the uptime to remain online. Not to beat the next level of a high-end videogame I'm playing."

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "That is why I mentioned getting a few of the cheaper ones."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "And I figure I can finish up or write myself out of most RP in a half-hour."

["Azizi"] says, "As it wouldn't be a big deal to swap."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "So a single 1500 with my new system should be sufficient. Not that I have the budget for one."

["Azizi"] nods, "ANd if you find you need more you can just buy a new battery."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Considering all the thunderstorms and the fact that so many people run their A/Cs in summer, the number of outages here has been few, and they've all been under an hour."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "I could, but that'd be a pain to recharge them again."

["Akili"] actually should replace his laptop battery, but that's around $150, last he checked.

["Azizi"] nods.

["Azizi"] says, "It would be a pain. But hopefully you won't ever get them low enough for that to be an issue."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "And I'm still not convinced that something isn't wrong with the charging circuit. But I can't check that."

["Akili"] rumbles lightly, "Well, as I'm not likely to have that much money to spend on them in the first place ,no, it's not likely to be an issue. :)"

["Akili"] thinks this qualifies as a rant, and sets it aside. "I think I'm about to head to bed, too. I'm tired. :)"

["Azizi"] nods and hugs, "Good night daddy."

["Akili"] waves goodnight, and heads out.